Hi Paul, Bob and Catherine et al Just a short note to SHOW my support for Catherine's view and to say that I was UNPERSUADED by Paul's argument or was it a SHOWING? I wonder if the judges who are "shown" each lawyers ?arguments? then "SEE" which is better or do they get PERSUADED? According to Merriam Webster: "Argumentation, the act or process of forming reasons and of drawing conclusions and applying them to a case in discussion" Can't see the problem with this. I have over 30 years of anecdotal evidence from my critical thinking students that one of the great benefits of the course was improvement in their ability to write a (reason based and persuasive, I assumed) academic essay. If was assume that an important goal of CT courses is to improve a students ability to be a rational citizen then surely we should include argumentation. Mark Dr. Mark Battersby Critical Inquiry Group Professor Emeritus Department of Philosophy Capilano University On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:20 AM, Wagner, Paul A <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Persuasion adds a great deal that is distracting. Critical thinking is > about showing. It shows solutions to problems and it shows flaws in > recommended solutions. Persuading others is not part of that agenda. > > Einstein and his colleagues wrote the EPR paper to reveal seemingly > evident flaws in the Copenhagen interpretation. They were not trying to > influence followers but rather showing where attention needed to be > directed to augment or re-direct Copenhagen. They were not soliciting a > vote. > > > Even in the American court system this difference is evident. At the trial > level the attorneys are trying to persuade the jurors within the > constraints imposed by the courts. At the appellate level things are quite > different!!!! There the attorneys are SHOWING whether or not there was a > violation of procedure or evident misapplication of the law. > > Even at the SCOTUS while attorneys may be called before the bench to > explain aspects of their brief and amicus curiae may be called in to > comment. The intent is to SHOW a decision is or is not in alignment with > precedent and no procedural violations faulted a decision. The intent OF > THE PROCESS is not to have another go at persuading a trier of fact about > the truth of some alleged claim. > > > In a recent book published by Rowman and Littlefield titled THINKING > AHEAD, the authors, somewhat tongue in cheek, offer as an insight into > critico-creative thinking, the LAW of Figuring Things Out. By this they > meant that critico-creative thinking is about SHOWING the most plausible > solutions in a given problem frame or, demonstrating the presence of > defeaters in an explanation. > > > Logic - formal and informal - decision theory, game theory, the > heuristical value and heuristical distractions described in the work of > economists (Thaler, Susskind etc) and cognitive scientists (Kahneman, > Tversky, Lichtenstein, Slovic etc) is all about moving the community of > scholars forward in a quest for shared understanding. > > > Matters of persuasion are important. BUT, they are not part and parcel of > any Law of Figuring Things Out. Persuasion is about winning converts. > People may seek truth or demonstrate truth without any intention of winning > converts. > > > Addendum: The fact that matters of persuasion may overlap at times simply > is insufficient to claim they are simply of one cloth. I hope I have shown > this but, you may want to persuade me differently. Of course, if I have > effectively shown what I claim then your persuasion would be a distraction > would it not? If I have evident holes in my reasoning then you needn't > worry about persuasion at all in this case. Instead you can simply show > where the holes exist. Presumably you would not do this to discredit me but > rather to shed light on a gap for all in this community of inquiry to see. > > > PS. Translating AILACT newsletter and pubs seems a good idea to me btw. > > Respectfully, > > Paul Wagner > ------------------------------ > *From:* AILACT DISCUSSION LIST <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Catherine Hundleby <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 9:20:35 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* [External] Re: Should AILACT's website be translated into > other languages? > > Hi Bob: > > I'm not trying to appropriate anything, just respond to your suggestion > that we eliminate "argumentation" from AILACT. The reason you give is that > it commonly is understood to include persuasion. I'm not sure why that is > problematic, except that it involves social dimensions. Further, I don't > think the Association can claim to be about informal logic if it's not > addressing argumentation, so I really find this suggestion baffling. > > In trying to speculate about your reasons I clearly have ventured into > territory beyond your intentions, though I maintain not beyond the > implications of your suggestion. > > I don't want to clog this list any further, and this discussion is way > beyond the original intent of this thread. If you wish to discuss this in > private, feel free to email me. > > Sincerely, > Cate > > On 2018-05-11, 10:25 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis, > robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Catherine, > > I wonder 1) what it is to have an "individualistic model of CT”, 2) > why you think that AILACT has one, 3) why you think that having it makes > CT useless against cognitive biases, given the so-called "bias blind spot”, > and 4) what the "bias blind spot” is. > > One of the dispositions promoted under the label "critical thinking", > is to seek clarification when needed. > > > > Since many of us have put in many hours developing AILACT and the > fields of informal logic and critical thinking, I hope that you will not > try to appropriate the results of our efforts. Make your own organization. > > I am not objecting to argumentation (in the persuasion-including > sense). It’s important and worthy of study, and deserves to have an > organization, web site, and discussion listserv. > > Bob Ennis > > > > > > On May 11, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Catherine Hundleby <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > > One thing to be considered if AILACT wants to retain an > individualistic model of CT is that will make CT useless against cognitive > biases, given the bias blind-spot. Social models (which may or may not be > models of argumentation, but will likely involve the subject of persuasion) > open up possible avenues around the bias blind spot. > > > > That is just one consideration from the 35 years of scholarship on > CT that have amassed since 1983. In addition, the individualistic model of > justification is undergoing substantial revision by social epistemologists. > > > > - Cate Hundleby > > > > On 2018-05-11, 4:50 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis, > robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > If Catherine and Michael want to form an organization called > argumentation, let them do so. Or they might call it “Arg Theory”. But I > request of them and some others that they not try to appropriate and dilute > the concerns expressed in 1983 when at a meeting in Windsor we created > AILACT with David Hitchcock as our first president. > > > > I do not have in mind any particular model of justification. > > > > Bob Ennis > > > > > >> On May 11, 2018, at 4:33 PM, Catherine Hundleby < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> > >> Justification occurs in a social context, which is why it often > involves argumentation, though certainly not always. What model of > justification do you have in mind, Bob? > >> > >> -Cate > >> > >> On 2018-05-11, 4:28 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis, > robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> > >> Critical thinking is concerned with justification. Argumentation, > as many now interpret it, is concerned heavily with persuasion. > >> > >> Persuasion is also very important in our lives. So is history -- > and study of our native language, But that is not a good enough reason to > dilute the study of justification. > >> > >> Bob Ennis > >>> On May 11, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Michael Gilbert <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Oh, and Critical Thinking doesn’t??? > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>>> On May 11, 2018, at 11:10 AM, ennis, robert h < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I suggest we limit it to Informal Logic and Critical Thinking. > Argumentation as it is commonly interpreted includes persuasion. > >>>> > >>>> Bob Ennis > >>>> > >>>>> On May 10, 2018, at 6:11 PM, Lilian Bermejo Luque < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear all, > >>>>> > >>>>> The board of directors of AILACT is going to launch a series of > questions in order to encourage members to colectively debate and decide > about possible ways of invigorating our association. The first question we > would like to ask is this: > >>>>> > >>>>> Expanding the presence of the Argumentation, Critical Thinking > and Informal Logic community in non-English speaking countries seems like a > sound goal for our association. Do you think it would be a good idea to > have our website translated into other languages, like Spanish, Chinese, > Portuguese, etc.? In case you do, how do you think we should do it? Do you > have other ideas to achieve this goal? > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>> Lilian > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Dra. Lilian Bermejo Luque > >>>>> Profesora Titular > >>>>> Departamento de Filosofía I > >>>>> Universidad de Granada > >>>>> Tlf. +34 958249725 > >>>>> http://www.ugr.es/~lilianbl/index.htm > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ugr.es_-7Elilianbl_index.htm&d=DwMGaQ&c=mRWFL96tuqj9V0Jjj4h40ddo0XsmttALwKjAEOCyUjY&r=KTO-67piPlkvVwpkegE90CPhOOUVOHyNkd2ycJxraVlOjFMzr4s8w_Q89bvfLZgJ&m=LDDhFOhhFUOKO3q-nGlnKUqVP5yL0ma8Le1PV0SWrAs&s=xxXCvshsr2J_duN7fo1_I2qJQH-RNTXUozfYF2iJ9Z8&e=> > >>>>> > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the AILACTD-L list, click the following link: > >>>>> https://HUNTER.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU/scripts/wa-hc.exe?TICKET= > NzM2ODU0IHJoZW5uaXNASUxMSU5PSVMuRURVIEFJTEFDVEQtTE8Mi7fIk8ao&c=SIGNOFF > 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