Hi Paul, Bob and Catherine et al
Just a short note to SHOW my support for Catherine's view and to say that I
was UNPERSUADED by Paul's argument or was it a SHOWING? I wonder if the
judges who are "shown" each lawyers ?arguments? then "SEE" which is better
or do they get PERSUADED?
According to Merriam Webster: "Argumentation, the act or process of
forming reasons and of drawing conclusions and applying them to a case in
discussion" Can't see the problem with this.
I have over 30 years of anecdotal evidence from my critical thinking
students that one of the great benefits of the course was improvement in
their ability to write a (reason based and persuasive, I assumed) academic
essay. If was assume that an important goal of CT courses is to improve a
students ability to be a rational citizen then surely we should include
argumentation.
Mark
Dr. Mark Battersby
Critical Inquiry Group
Professor Emeritus Department of Philosophy
Capilano University
On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:20 AM, Wagner, Paul A <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Persuasion adds a great deal that is distracting. Critical thinking is
> about showing. It shows solutions to problems and it shows flaws in
> recommended solutions. Persuading others is not part of that agenda.
>
> Einstein and his colleagues wrote the EPR paper to reveal seemingly
> evident flaws in the Copenhagen interpretation. They were not trying to
> influence followers but rather showing where attention needed to be
> directed to augment or re-direct Copenhagen. They were not soliciting a
> vote.
>
>
> Even in the American court system this difference is evident. At the trial
> level the attorneys are trying to persuade the jurors within the
> constraints imposed by the courts. At the appellate level things are quite
> different!!!! There the attorneys are SHOWING whether or not there was a
> violation of procedure or evident misapplication of the law.
>
> Even at the SCOTUS while attorneys may be called before the bench to
> explain aspects of their brief and amicus curiae may be called in to
> comment. The intent is to SHOW a decision is or is not in alignment with
> precedent and no procedural violations faulted a decision. The intent OF
> THE PROCESS is not to have another go at persuading a trier of fact about
> the truth of some alleged claim.
>
>
> In a recent book published by Rowman and Littlefield titled THINKING
> AHEAD, the authors, somewhat tongue in cheek, offer as an insight into
> critico-creative thinking, the LAW of Figuring Things Out. By this they
> meant that critico-creative thinking is about SHOWING the most plausible
> solutions in a given problem frame or, demonstrating the presence of
> defeaters in an explanation.
>
>
> Logic - formal and informal - decision theory, game theory, the
> heuristical value and heuristical distractions described in the work of
> economists (Thaler, Susskind etc) and cognitive scientists (Kahneman,
> Tversky, Lichtenstein, Slovic etc) is all about moving the community of
> scholars forward in a quest for shared understanding.
>
>
> Matters of persuasion are important. BUT, they are not part and parcel of
> any Law of Figuring Things Out. Persuasion is about winning converts.
> People may seek truth or demonstrate truth without any intention of winning
> converts.
>
>
> Addendum: The fact that matters of persuasion may overlap at times simply
> is insufficient to claim they are simply of one cloth. I hope I have shown
> this but, you may want to persuade me differently. Of course, if I have
> effectively shown what I claim then your persuasion would be a distraction
> would it not? If I have evident holes in my reasoning then you needn't
> worry about persuasion at all in this case. Instead you can simply show
> where the holes exist. Presumably you would not do this to discredit me but
> rather to shed light on a gap for all in this community of inquiry to see.
>
>
> PS. Translating AILACT newsletter and pubs seems a good idea to me btw.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Paul Wagner
> ------------------------------
> *From:* AILACT DISCUSSION LIST <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Catherine Hundleby <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 9:20:35 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* [External] Re: Should AILACT's website be translated into
> other languages?
>
> Hi Bob:
>
> I'm not trying to appropriate anything, just respond to your suggestion
> that we eliminate "argumentation" from AILACT. The reason you give is that
> it commonly is understood to include persuasion. I'm not sure why that is
> problematic, except that it involves social dimensions. Further, I don't
> think the Association can claim to be about informal logic if it's not
> addressing argumentation, so I really find this suggestion baffling.
>
> In trying to speculate about your reasons I clearly have ventured into
> territory beyond your intentions, though I maintain not beyond the
> implications of your suggestion.
>
> I don't want to clog this list any further, and this discussion is way
> beyond the original intent of this thread. If you wish to discuss this in
> private, feel free to email me.
>
> Sincerely,
> Cate
>
> On 2018-05-11, 10:25 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis,
> robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hi Catherine,
>
> I wonder 1) what it is to have an "individualistic model of CT”, 2)
> why you think that AILACT has one, 3) why you think that having it makes
> CT useless against cognitive biases, given the so-called "bias blind spot”,
> and 4) what the "bias blind spot” is.
>
> One of the dispositions promoted under the label "critical thinking",
> is to seek clarification when needed.
>
>
>
> Since many of us have put in many hours developing AILACT and the
> fields of informal logic and critical thinking, I hope that you will not
> try to appropriate the results of our efforts. Make your own organization.
>
> I am not objecting to argumentation (in the persuasion-including
> sense). It’s important and worthy of study, and deserves to have an
> organization, web site, and discussion listserv.
>
> Bob Ennis
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 11, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Catherine Hundleby <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > One thing to be considered if AILACT wants to retain an
> individualistic model of CT is that will make CT useless against cognitive
> biases, given the bias blind-spot. Social models (which may or may not be
> models of argumentation, but will likely involve the subject of persuasion)
> open up possible avenues around the bias blind spot.
> >
> > That is just one consideration from the 35 years of scholarship on
> CT that have amassed since 1983. In addition, the individualistic model of
> justification is undergoing substantial revision by social epistemologists.
> >
> > - Cate Hundleby
> >
> > On 2018-05-11, 4:50 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis,
> robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > If Catherine and Michael want to form an organization called
> argumentation, let them do so. Or they might call it “Arg Theory”. But I
> request of them and some others that they not try to appropriate and dilute
> the concerns expressed in 1983 when at a meeting in Windsor we created
> AILACT with David Hitchcock as our first president.
> >
> > I do not have in mind any particular model of justification.
> >
> > Bob Ennis
> >
> >
> >> On May 11, 2018, at 4:33 PM, Catherine Hundleby <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Justification occurs in a social context, which is why it often
> involves argumentation, though certainly not always. What model of
> justification do you have in mind, Bob?
> >>
> >> -Cate
> >>
> >> On 2018-05-11, 4:28 PM, "AILACT DISCUSSION LIST on behalf of ennis,
> robert h" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Critical thinking is concerned with justification. Argumentation,
> as many now interpret it, is concerned heavily with persuasion.
> >>
> >> Persuasion is also very important in our lives. So is history --
> and study of our native language, But that is not a good enough reason to
> dilute the study of justification.
> >>
> >> Bob Ennis
> >>> On May 11, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Michael Gilbert <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Oh, and Critical Thinking doesn’t???
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>>> On May 11, 2018, at 11:10 AM, ennis, robert h <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I suggest we limit it to Informal Logic and Critical Thinking.
> Argumentation as it is commonly interpreted includes persuasion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob Ennis
> >>>>
> >>>>> On May 10, 2018, at 6:11 PM, Lilian Bermejo Luque <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The board of directors of AILACT is going to launch a series of
> questions in order to encourage members to colectively debate and decide
> about possible ways of invigorating our association. The first question we
> would like to ask is this:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Expanding the presence of the Argumentation, Critical Thinking
> and Informal Logic community in non-English speaking countries seems like a
> sound goal for our association. Do you think it would be a good idea to
> have our website translated into other languages, like Spanish, Chinese,
> Portuguese, etc.? In case you do, how do you think we should do it? Do you
> have other ideas to achieve this goal?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>> Lilian
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Dra. Lilian Bermejo Luque
> >>>>> Profesora Titular
> >>>>> Departamento de Filosofía I
> >>>>> Universidad de Granada
> >>>>> Tlf. +34 958249725
> >>>>> http://www.ugr.es/~lilianbl/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ugr.es_-7Elilianbl_index.htm&d=DwMGaQ&c=mRWFL96tuqj9V0Jjj4h40ddo0XsmttALwKjAEOCyUjY&r=KTO-67piPlkvVwpkegE90CPhOOUVOHyNkd2ycJxraVlOjFMzr4s8w_Q89bvfLZgJ&m=LDDhFOhhFUOKO3q-nGlnKUqVP5yL0ma8Le1PV0SWrAs&s=xxXCvshsr2J_duN7fo1_I2qJQH-RNTXUozfYF2iJ9Z8&e=>
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